FN HERSTAL BELGIUM: The Israelis contracted FN to build them roughly 1000 of these dedicated .22 LR training rifles. It is purpose built with matching bolt. These were not fabricated from existing K98's in 8mm these actions, barrels and bolts were made just for this project. They were built on a FN single shot frame. These things are unbelievably rare and only a handful were imported about 10 years ago or so.I have seen these around occasionally, and have also heard of people making them from existing Mauser parts.
The bidding starts at $1300, with a buy-now of $1500. I think at those prices, the auction will only draw collectors. In that range a new or used Anschutz or lessor .22LR target rifle can be had. In my mind, part of the fun of an Israeli Mauser is firing it with a "real" cartridge like .308, so for me this rifle would get boring fast. Even for sentimental value, meh...these rifles almost certainly never saw combat, or maybe they trained a few IDF troops or Israeli kids. Given that it is a single shot rifle, I'm not even sure what the training value was.
As usual, buyer beware!
UPDATE: Apparently it sold for $1500.
Posts
Didn't CMP have some 22LR 1903 Springfields?
ReplyDeleteMike
I have just received a ..22 K-98 converted Mauser, with pinged off Nazi markings, with the large winter trigger guard, from a dealer in Canada. It took a whole year to get the gun and the cost was approximately $600. to get the gun to Wyoming through an importer in Washington state. The cost of the gun was $875.00 and then add 600. so $1475 total.
ReplyDeleteBut what is unique about this trainer is that it is NOT an FN made up trainer and contrary to what others profess, I believe this is a much rarer trainer and tremendously more desireable as a collectors item. THis trainer, coming on a converted, Nazi used K-98 from the was years, comes with a Remington barrel and specialized front custom sight. The Bolt iself is a marvel to look at. The stock is original in it's Nazi configuration and the Pinged out Nazi markings and Waffen marks indicates that this weapon saw service in two opposite campaigns. One, againstthe Allies and the "Jews", and one for the Jewish State of Israel. What a paradox. And, above all the pinged out and obliverated Nazi markings, is the Star of David and Hebrew letter. How appropriate!
If only this weapon could talk. It no doubt trained thousands of men, women, and kids, who had never fired a gun and had just been released from concentration camps in Europe and arrived in Israel to fight for their Independence.
Bottom line, "Training Value",,,,, immesurable, what price Liberation? Beyond what you can count my dear "Jewish Marksman"!!
Very interesting. But does the barrel have any Hebrew markings?
DeleteI don't mean to burst your bubble, but a few things make me wonder about whether it was used as a .22LR trainer in Israel. Now I suppose it is possible the armorers there had access to either barrel blanks or .22LR Remington rifles, and any good gunsmith could re-thread the barrel to fit the Mauser.
But is it not also possible, that someone in Canada had the same idea? I think it would be interesting to compare the bolt to existing .22LR bolts and ask whether the gunsmith built the bolt from scratch, modified a Mauser bolt to .22LR, or modified some other rifle's bolt to fit the Mauser? The answer to that question might also shed some light on exactly when and where the conversion was done.
For example, if the bolt seems to have been modified off of a 1945-1950's era Remington bolt, and we can somehow place .22LR Remington rifles in Israel, then indeed there is a chance it was done there.
But the main thing, we see with the converted rifles from 8mm to 7.62 that the Israeli armorers would often leave a Hebrew stamp or something on the barrel. If yours doesn't have something...
Thanks so much for the response. What is won derful is that there seems to be so little written and available information about these exceedingly rare k-98 .22 Trainers. My particular rifle is positively a battlefield WW11 Mauser with German Mauser Stock, winter war Russian theater, & receiver. Because of an altered receiver I can only make out two of three letters on the receiver bridge where there is also a pinged out Nazi eagle and swastika next to the barrel. No date is evident. The letters are "c" and what looks like an "e". The letters would indicate the place of manufacture. Any guesses from anyone would be helpful.
ReplyDeleteAs to the Remington barrel itis definately made for K-98 Mauser actions. The thickness of the barrel and specifications are identical to the Original K-98 Mauser barrel in that it fits perfectly to the WW11 Mauser stock, barrel band, rear sight, and in every was would duplicate the original K-98 Mauser barrel except that it is in .22 caliber. In no way is this barrel from any Remington .22 ever made.
The most interesting aspect of the barrel is in something I just discovered minutes ago. The front sight has a sight protector that also covers the front leading edge of the sight above the barrel. In removing the protector I discovered to Nazi proofs. The bottom is the Waffen mark that looks like a plane and under it the number 655. Above this proof is the Nazi Eagle and Swastika. Here is the confusing part. Since the barrel is, without a doubt American manufacture and Remington, how is it that an exact German Mauser, Nazi marked, is attached to this barrel. It is diffficult to see how these sight bands are attached. Any suggestions here.?
So, it seems that every effort to remove all Nazi proofs have been obliterated was successful from the receiver, but the part of the front sight that had Nazi proofs, hidden by the front sight protector, have made it evident that the Mauser is without a doubt a battlefield Wermacht WW11 rifle.
Secondly, the bolt itself is obviously a very professionally altered K-98 Mauser bolt, and probably done at the Remington factory by the best of experts. The alteration is so extensive that I am sure onky a factory like Remington or Winchester could do it. The alteration is so sufisticated it must have cost a fortune to accomplish.
more to follow
Steve kline
continued from prvious Post......
ReplyDeleteSo, to answer some of your questions, it is obvious that this gun was put together for, and intended for use, by the Israeli's who wereto fight for Independence in 1948. Therefore, it is my opinion that this type of converted K-98 .22 Mauser trainer, is not only rarer than the FN models, of later manufacture, but represent the first Trainers used by thousands to get Jews from Europe ready to defend their new country.
This K-98 is not import marked and that makes sence since it came out of Canada. By some account, 40 FN rifles were imorted about 15 years ago and sold in the U.S. It is important to note that the FN Mausers in.22 calibler were made "AFTER the Independence of Israel", and that my rifle, and probably other Remington barreled .22 K-98 conversions, were used DURING the 1948 years and the fight for recognition as a nation and the Independence of Israel and the fredom of thousands of Concentration camp survivors.
I find it most interesting that the same rifle would bear the Nazi Swastika markings right next to the Star of David. Again, as I said previously, how ironic is that. The same gun that fought against the very existance of Jews from every county in Europe, was then, in turn, used to train the same Jews to fight for the very Independence of not only the Jewish people themselves, but to establish a homeland for the same Jewish people that the Nazi regime tried, and almost accomplished, to remove frrom existance.
These Remington K-98 Mausers with both sets of proofs and markings have to be the rarest and most interesting Mausers for the collector.
In reading the boook "The Pledge" by Leonard Slater written in 1970 and reprinted in 2000, the reader can learn how Israel acquired 15 tons of machine guns, 5 anti-aircraft
searchlights, 3 salvaged flying fortresses, a few ME 109 fighters, pistols, rifles and explosives, all used to defend Israel in their fight for independence. This book is a MUST read for all of you interested in what and how it all happened.
Now it is necessary for someone to expand on it and get into detail where, who, and how, a lot of these weapons ended up in Israel and the people responsible for making it all happen. I am sure we would all want to know. What a great book that would be.
Thanks Jewish Marksman, maybe some answers can come to light by your posting and my K-98 .22 Independence Trainer. infomation would be appreciated, and if there is a book that has additional info to "The Pledge". Incidentally, my father, and my relatives, were some of those who actively participated in the actual workings of what transpired during those crutial years leading to, and during the years, of Israel's Independence.
All
Steve Kline
Story, Wyoming
Steve-
DeleteAs for the barrel, I can tell you what I did with my Israeli Mauser (German receiver) with the shot-out barrel. I had a gunsmith remove the barrel, and we sent it out to Pacnor Barrels. There, they copied the contour of the military K98 barrel onto a new blank. It was only like a $70 charge over a standard contour. So I think it is likely, as you say, that the barrel on yours started from a blank, and was purpose cut.
As for the front sight band, that (as well as the rear sight band) is soldered on.
To the bolt, it would be interesting to compare the bolt you have versus the FN .22LR trainer bolt.
So at the end of the day, you believe your rifle was manufactured in the US?
I just got an FN trainer all matching for $950. Its on the original Herstal frame
DeleteAlso the Slater book sounds interesting, I'll check it out.
ReplyDeleteI was at an auction sale last weekend and bought three old guns - one is an Enfield converted to 410, one was a sporterized Enfield - and the third is one is an old 98 converted to .22 like the one described by Steve Kline. I have no experience with these old guns - so haven't taken any wood or parts off to look deeper - it is still dirty but oiled - but the first thing that my daughter said when she looked at it was that it has a Jewish star on it. Remington barrel on a rough old action. Sorry to interrupt - your discussion is very very interesting to me.
ReplyDeleteI imported the Remington 98k conversion and fn israeli 22 rifles
ReplyDeleteinto canada from Israel. There were 2000 fn israeli
22 rifles made. 1000 went to south Africa. I still have a number of the fn's in exc to Mint condition